Curse

Essence Snow · Nov 11, 2011, 02:01 PM // 14:01

I'm going to have to agree with OP and mostly Elnino's comment. While I don't mind the added difficulty, I do find it harder to VQ these areas than it is to complete any other area in the game including slavers hm, doa hm, and uw hm. That being said I feel that some sort of warning is needed to inform those who don't share in my interest. Or allow spawns to return if all WoC quests are abandoned. I don't feel that any player should be omitted from any content reguardless of what I or others feel we need. On that note the level of egotism in some of the posts is appalling.

Amy Awien · Nov 11, 2011, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

... ... it just doesn't seem right that this "challenge" is forced onto players like the op when they're doing a quest completely unrelated to WoC.

You don't get these foes when you haven't started the WoC quest chain, at least I didn't notice anything special when vanquishing Zen Daijun. But I agree that it should be possible to stop it if you did happen to start the WoC chain, maybe an active ZQ for the area could keep the mobs from spawning, it's not like that is never done.

Gill Halendt · Nov 11, 2011, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelfer

there's no comparisn here, really not. BFLA before 7 heroes was a challenge if you were alone.

The level of the WOC quests is just about right, although I disagree that gimmick builds are needed here.

It all depends on what you call a "gimmick build".

As a player who stubbornly did without PvE-only skills up to now, even bringing SY! on my Warrior felt borderline gimmicky... To me WoC lacked strategic finesse: I could brute-force through most of the HM quests, and that was a bit of a disappointment... WiK was much better accomplished in this respect IMO.

On the other hand, I've never had any problems with BFLA H/H before they "dumbed it down".

Yol · Nov 11, 2011, 03:14 PM // 15:14

ANet can't win....players complain that it's too hard, so they make it easier, and then players complain that it's not challenging enough, so they make it harder, and then players complain that it's too hard...

Players have completed acts 1 and 2 of WoC in HM, and players have vanquished Cantha with the WoC spawns present. If you can't do it, ask those that can how they did it instead of whining that it's too hard. If you have done it, please give advice or pointers to those that have genuinely tried different strategies instead of running here to whine at the first sign of difficulty.

Jeydra · Nov 11, 2011, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yol

ANet can't win....players complain that it's too hard, so they make it easier, and then players complain that it's not challenging enough, so they make it harder, and then players complain that it's too hard...

Players have completed acts 1 and 2 of WoC in HM, and players have vanquished Cantha with the WoC spawns present. If you can't do it, ask those that can how they did it instead of whining that it's too hard. If you have done it, please give advice or pointers to those that have genuinely tried different strategies instead of running here to whine at the first sign of difficulty.

^This.

Quote:

On the other hand, I've never had any problems with BFLA H/H before they "dumbed it down".

You didn't do it in HM.

Silmar Alech · Nov 11, 2011, 03:39 PM // 15:39

It is nice, that new interesting and challenging mobs replace boring and underpowered previous foes, but on the other hand, I don't care if I vanquish. With 136 areas to vanquish, I just want to get through it. To hell with the challenge, I just want that yellow helmet appear for that area.

It's somewhat irritating that suddenly some areas are definitely more difficult to vanquish than for other players, and you can do nothing against it apart from "do not start WoC". This is basically "do not play content x before doing y, otherwise you're forced to play the more difficult content".
In the past, things only got easier, never more difficult.

Luckily, I did not start WoC for that character I'm currently vanquishing, so I'm not complaining - but I am glad that I did not start WoC yet for that character. I guess this is not a desired feeling about a part of the game.

Gill Halendt · Nov 11, 2011, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You didn't do it in HM.

Actually, I did, in order to have 2 Lv20 hencmen instead of Lv10 ones.

Irrelevant tough. WoC was a bit "quantity over quality" when compared to WiK IMO. Groups grossly overpowering the player in number, level or attributes, but still powered by a stupid AI, are not my idea of "challenge".

Jeydra · Nov 11, 2011, 04:02 PM // 16:02

If you did BFLA HM H/H, especially if it was done without consumables, post screenshot. To the best of my knowledge nobody was able to do it, although many excellent players have tried.

As for not being your idea of "challenge", what would you prefer? How do you give the monsters an advantage without tweaking number, level, attributes? Or do you want to tweak AI?

Wielder Of Magic · Nov 11, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Altough I agree that there should be an option to somehow "turn woc off" for those that want the normal spawns ( perhaps map spawns can be linked to your current active quest, meaning that when you/party leader does not have a woc quest active, there won't be woc mobs), I will mainly adress the horde of players that started woc, could not c-space it, and now cry for a nerf.

As said before to those people: Learn.To.Play.

I actually enjoyed the challenge that Winds Of Change gave me in hardmode.
Sure the mobs might be overpowerd in level and attribute here and there, but its still doable with basic tactics.
You do not have to be a professional to finish these quests.
Basic pulls, basic flags, and basic map watching ( no over aggro etc) is all you really need.

Guru has excellent guides on this matter, and for the real lazy people you can watch all basic and advanced tactics on youtube.

If you cannot be bothered with that, then don't play.
The content is clearly not meant for you.
Do not cry because you cannot 1-2-3 it.
Use your brain.

The Farmer · Nov 11, 2011, 04:31 PM // 16:31

i agree with op the rewards are shit...however its free so who cares really.

bj91x · Nov 11, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

There are players who like elite difficulty content and there are players who like casual content. Elite players have elite HM areas to give them the challenge they want. Casual players stick to non-elite HM areas for a more relaxing gameplay. WoC HM is on par with elite HM areas, difficulty wise.

Unfortunately, WoC changes the difficulty of these casual HM areas into elite HM areas. A player who started WoC on NM did not ask for theire non-elite HM areas to be changed. Yet, now the casual players have to suffer.

Anet should make it so that non-elite HM areas aren't affected by WoC enemies if they currently don't have a HM quest in their log that affects the spawn of the area.

While there are some gamers who like to do elite difficulty stuff, many gamers just want to play casually without spending the time to study the game hardcore. If they work hard at their job, family, friends, etc. they have more important things to spend their effort on and games are a good way to escape from that pressure. The last thing they want is to spend the same effort on some game that's meant to help relieve that pressure.

If these casual players want to do elite HM content then yes, they should learn to play. However, when this elite difficulty is tossed on to casual player areas, it's the game that needs to change or lose its players.

dasmitchies · Nov 11, 2011, 04:54 PM // 16:54

I agree it must be frustrating, I can only imagine when WOC ends thigns will return to normal. Maybe in January or probably March.

Mintha Syl · Nov 11, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj91x

There are players who like elite difficulty content and there are players who like casual content. Elite players have elite HM areas to give them the challenge they want. Casual players stick to non-elite HM areas for a more relaxing gameplay. WoC HM is on par with elite HM areas, difficulty wise.

Unfortunately, WoC changes the difficulty of these casual HM areas into elite HM areas. A player who started WoC on NM did not ask for theire non-elite HM areas to be changed. Yet, now the casual players have to suffer.

Anet should make it so that non-elite HM areas aren't affected by WoC enemies if they currently don't have a HM quest in their log that affects the spawn of the area.

While there are some gamers who like to do elite difficulty stuff, many gamers just want to play casually without spending the time to study the game hardcore. If they work hard at their job, family, friends, etc. they have more important things to spend their effort on and games are a good way to escape from that pressure. The last thing they want is to spend the same effort on some game that's meant to help relieve that pressure.

If these casual players want to do elite HM content then yes, they should learn to play. However, when this elite difficulty is tossed on to casual player areas, it's the game that needs to change or lose its players.

I quote this all. And really, for all those who say "learn to play"...is it really your answer for everything? If every complaint in gw history had to be sealed with such simplicistic answers, the game would never had any changes since day 1.

That said, when I first discovered about the perma (or permanent for the moment, since we yet don't know how it will be after all parts have been done), I stopped after the first quest with my main and chose a char I don't like much to play with and I don't care much about to do the woc, so that I could enjoy playing normal cantha with my favourite ones. Now, I may be wrong, but I think one should play content with the chars he likes the most, not vice versa. And as I've seen many suggestions saying one should do the same as I did...well, I just don't think it's right.

Now, I remember when they made us take that test about wik to know what we liked and what not to see what they should have corrected in the future gw:b parts. I don't have the results under eye now, and I may remember wrong, but wasn't one of the things most people complained about the change of spawns all over kryta and the impossibility to have a switch for that? Well, they made woc so that you don't have any changes if you don't start it, and that's good, but following those results wouldn't also have been useful to put that switch off as well?Like, normal spawns if you don't have any of woc quests in your log or something like that. And I really really hope things will be reverted once all 3 parts have been done, otherwise it will mean that answers they had from us were totally useless.
Just my 2cents.

chuckles79 · Nov 11, 2011, 05:20 PM // 17:20

The problem I had was not that it was "too hard" as some real jerks went off on.

The problem was that I'm going about non-WoC business, but I have to fight through Ministry mobs to get to those places.

It's kinda silly that you have to fight through tough dual-profession bad guys to go beat the boss who's weaker than the weakest ministry enemies you face.
I've seen this a few times already where you fight WoC foes in one area and the next block or so you are back to generic badguys who you faceroll.

WiK brought us bounties that gave us reason to go into their territory and fight them in HM.
All WoC is doing is making me avoid adventuring in Cantha.

What started all this is I took the Z-Bounty which until WoC was a milk run and all of the sudden I have to fight through ministry thugs to get to him.
If I wanted that level of difficulty I'd be doing dungeons or FoW/UW, or even more WiK bounties.

Not to mention the fact that why would a battalion of Ministry guys be loitering around the undercity?

Gill Halendt · Nov 11, 2011, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you did BFLA HM H/H, especially if it was done without consumables, post screenshot. To the best of my knowledge nobody was able to do it, although many excellent players have tried.

I don't have any screenshots, altough I did use consumables.

Still, a lot of the complaints about BFLA came by the majority that didn't care and just did it NM, so it must have been pretty tough for them anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As for not being your idea of "challenge", what would you prefer? How do you give the monsters an advantage without tweaking number, level, attributes? Or do you want to tweak AI?

Tweaking the AI to a deeper extent is what HM should have been about since the beginning, IMO. I think it's way too late for such a change tough.

Better synergies and randomization of mobs, together with some improvements to the AI tough, are entirely possible. WiK was great in this respect, while I felt like they went back to the "bigger is better" attitude with WoC: even if groups were randomized as well, they were pretty predictable, with fewer variations and more focused but less original builds. That, together with almost insignificant coordination meant each enemy was playing on its own against you, relying on its powerful build alone. It made most groups just a matter of patience, which I found a bit boring.

Yol · Nov 11, 2011, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Not to mention the fact that why would a battalion of Ministry guys be loitering around the undercity?

Hunting for the Am Fah down there, according to the storyline.

Avatar of Me · Nov 11, 2011, 07:25 PM // 19:25

In all honesty, I didn't find the WoC HM content too difficult, aside from the quests on Shing Jea Island. Granted, I've only just finished dealing with the afflicted. I've yet to see how difficult the rest of the content is, but from what people tell me, it's easier than the afflicted.

I can understand where people are coming from though. It's a huge ramp up in difficulty from the regular spawns. And it doesn't just go away when the quests are done.

Also, if you're having trouble with these quests, stop using discord. Seriously, I can't stress this enough.

Kelfer · Nov 11, 2011, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Avatar of Me : stop using discord

Yup

It's been redundant since the change to AotL
Do find taking a Nec w. Verata skills amsuing here tho'
"Who's minion was that again?"

Anyways, the Minister dudes are there to stay until this thing ends, get used to it

Sciros Darkblade · Nov 11, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I've played through all of the WoC content and its biggest crime wasn't the level of difficulty. It was how repetitive it was! I kept hoping for something other than "fight off waves of dudes again" but no. It's as if the live team was timeboxed to half a day to design the full set of quests for WoC. It's free content, sure (being a long term investment in the fanbase so that we will continue to pay for stuff when stuff to pay for comes around), but it's just so primitively designed and shallow. Granted the second WoC release was an improvement in terms of story than the first (which was one of the worst, most boring things I've played in years), there's still a ways to go to make me want to play for the sake of playing it, rather than purely for promise of quest rewards.

/haterrant

Mireles · Nov 11, 2011, 09:06 PM // 21:06

It is not any harder than hard mode used to be before it got watered down for the QQ-ers... just be glad they don't have 25% faster cast and recharge anymore and think of solutions outside of the popular gimmicks instead of complaining bout it.